mBox
Apr 6, 08:44 AM
Folks there are cheaper options out there if you really need this.
If your a real professional then get a BD-drive plus Toast.
If your making tons of money then chances are you can afford Production or Master CS from Adobe.
Back in the day if we wanted to do high-end video, the peripherals for Mac alone would cost twice to three times the cost of the Mac itself.
Dont even bring up that other PC mfg have BD built in.
There is a reason for that :P
If your a real professional then get a BD-drive plus Toast.
If your making tons of money then chances are you can afford Production or Master CS from Adobe.
Back in the day if we wanted to do high-end video, the peripherals for Mac alone would cost twice to three times the cost of the Mac itself.
Dont even bring up that other PC mfg have BD built in.
There is a reason for that :P
azentropy
Apr 6, 01:30 PM
Apple also sold about 100K iPad's - yesterday.
AidenShaw
Jul 14, 11:14 PM
OTOH, its been great to finally read the benchmark figures for the new apple processors. It hit me that the mac community will finally have overclocking hardware readily available! Wow!
s/apple/Intel/wh
s/mac community/all the Intel vendors/wh
You have been assimilated.
Apple == Dell == IBM == Gateway == Lenovo == ...
s/apple/Intel/wh
s/mac community/all the Intel vendors/wh
You have been assimilated.
Apple == Dell == IBM == Gateway == Lenovo == ...
bretm
Apr 11, 09:51 AM
Then that just begs the question, "why haven't these people left already?" FCP has been fairly stagnant for years. There are plenty of other alternatives, so doesn't that kinda make them fanboyish too for sticking it out when up to this point Apple has given zero hints about when or how it will take FCP to the next level?
I'm not in the video editing biz, but if the pro s/w I use in my profession hobbled my efficiency and workflow the way you are carping about FCP, and there were viable alternatives, I would abandon it quicker than pigeon can snatch a bread crumb. Just sayin'.
I'm an independent corporate video editor. Work out of the house. I've been doing NLE since 1993. I started with VideoCube, then Media 100, then Avid, and then FCP in 2001. Avid had to get really behind (and threaten to leave the mac platform) before post houses made the switch. They really screwed that up at NAB that year. They had been languishing on the mac apps and releasing certain products- Symphony, DS, etc. on Windows only for a few years and at NAB one sales guy said to someone that they would essentially be phasing out the mac platform. They denied it later, but it was probably their plan. Then FCP came out and for the corporate folks that didn't need to spend 70,000 on an Avid system, it was wonderful. In the years that followed it closed the gap immensely and Avid fought back with cheaper products and options. It became a either or situation, with FCP being the slightly cheaper option. But with the new tech in the last 2 years, Apple has to leap frog again.
But still, it's so much more than just the app. Which is why Adobe (which has all the features everyone wants in FCP) is having such a hard time getting anyone but hacks to use it. There is an installed user base and an entire generation of people trained on FCP & Avid. And it was just the above fluke that gave FCP an in. It's one thing for an individual like me to switch, but for a company that uses contractors and other companies and rely on compatibility and workflows and such, it's a nightmare. I work with independent producers, and their clients are usually large companies. All 3 of us are using FCP. If I switch, I make life hard on the producer who is cutting together rough ideas on her laptop. When we deliver product, we deliver a product and the FCP project and files so that the big company, who has editing facilites of their own, can make changes without our help in an emergency. It's part of why they feel comfortable going out of house.
It's the smaller turnkey shops that do it all in house that can afford to keep totally cutting edge and buy every upgrade. But truth is, most good editing should rely on cuts and dissolves. You need anything fancier audio or graphic wise, you should be hiring an audio professional or a graphics professional.
I have the Adobe Master collection myself because I dabble in AE, PS, Flash and Dreamweaver. But the web authoring has just gone crazy. I can't keep up with all that. And AE is starting to get that way too. For me, I would just like FCP to upgrade and/or reinvent itself so I can integrate new tech simpler. Better authoring for Blu-Ray and DVD. Better web options. Importing file formats without log and transfer BS. And lets tune it up to make it use all the processors and be a ridiculous powerhouse. High end features rivaling Avid, and the touch and elegance of Apple. Plus a few neat tricks like offline editing on iPad or using the iPad as a controller, etc. would be cool and welcome.
I'm not in the video editing biz, but if the pro s/w I use in my profession hobbled my efficiency and workflow the way you are carping about FCP, and there were viable alternatives, I would abandon it quicker than pigeon can snatch a bread crumb. Just sayin'.
I'm an independent corporate video editor. Work out of the house. I've been doing NLE since 1993. I started with VideoCube, then Media 100, then Avid, and then FCP in 2001. Avid had to get really behind (and threaten to leave the mac platform) before post houses made the switch. They really screwed that up at NAB that year. They had been languishing on the mac apps and releasing certain products- Symphony, DS, etc. on Windows only for a few years and at NAB one sales guy said to someone that they would essentially be phasing out the mac platform. They denied it later, but it was probably their plan. Then FCP came out and for the corporate folks that didn't need to spend 70,000 on an Avid system, it was wonderful. In the years that followed it closed the gap immensely and Avid fought back with cheaper products and options. It became a either or situation, with FCP being the slightly cheaper option. But with the new tech in the last 2 years, Apple has to leap frog again.
But still, it's so much more than just the app. Which is why Adobe (which has all the features everyone wants in FCP) is having such a hard time getting anyone but hacks to use it. There is an installed user base and an entire generation of people trained on FCP & Avid. And it was just the above fluke that gave FCP an in. It's one thing for an individual like me to switch, but for a company that uses contractors and other companies and rely on compatibility and workflows and such, it's a nightmare. I work with independent producers, and their clients are usually large companies. All 3 of us are using FCP. If I switch, I make life hard on the producer who is cutting together rough ideas on her laptop. When we deliver product, we deliver a product and the FCP project and files so that the big company, who has editing facilites of their own, can make changes without our help in an emergency. It's part of why they feel comfortable going out of house.
It's the smaller turnkey shops that do it all in house that can afford to keep totally cutting edge and buy every upgrade. But truth is, most good editing should rely on cuts and dissolves. You need anything fancier audio or graphic wise, you should be hiring an audio professional or a graphics professional.
I have the Adobe Master collection myself because I dabble in AE, PS, Flash and Dreamweaver. But the web authoring has just gone crazy. I can't keep up with all that. And AE is starting to get that way too. For me, I would just like FCP to upgrade and/or reinvent itself so I can integrate new tech simpler. Better authoring for Blu-Ray and DVD. Better web options. Importing file formats without log and transfer BS. And lets tune it up to make it use all the processors and be a ridiculous powerhouse. High end features rivaling Avid, and the touch and elegance of Apple. Plus a few neat tricks like offline editing on iPad or using the iPad as a controller, etc. would be cool and welcome.
Sydde
Mar 21, 01:28 PM
Not that they're absolutely mutually exclusive, but I'm curious--how do you reconcile the first statement with the latter two?
It is in fact somewhat problematic. At present, the government is basically run by moneyed interests that supply the funding needed for the candidates to get into office (so that they can shower favours upon their benefactors and sponsors). This is the sixth check/balance, which was not literally codified but has become standard via legal precedent. Those of us who feel that real change is called for still support the (p)resident because he is the one least likely to enact tragic "progress". The system is, nonetheless, dreadfully broken. The idiots that I hold in serious contention are either marginalized into submission or holding seats of power, a situation that serves only to amplify our division, to our detriment.
It is in fact somewhat problematic. At present, the government is basically run by moneyed interests that supply the funding needed for the candidates to get into office (so that they can shower favours upon their benefactors and sponsors). This is the sixth check/balance, which was not literally codified but has become standard via legal precedent. Those of us who feel that real change is called for still support the (p)resident because he is the one least likely to enact tragic "progress". The system is, nonetheless, dreadfully broken. The idiots that I hold in serious contention are either marginalized into submission or holding seats of power, a situation that serves only to amplify our division, to our detriment.
the vj
Apr 25, 02:55 PM
Jobs.... you better say sorry dude. :rolleyes:
epitaphic
Aug 18, 11:46 PM
So you think they put an extra processor in across the line just to be able to say they had a quad? Even the AnandTech article you used as a source showed here (http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2816&p=18) that PS took advantage of quad cores in Rosetta
Yes under some specific results the quad was a bit faster than the dual. Though with the combo of Rosetta+Photoshop its unclear what is causing the difference. However, if you compare the vast majority of the benchmarks, there's negligible difference.
Concerning Photoshop specifically, as can be experienced on a quad G5, the performance increase is 15-20%. A future jump to 8-core would theoretically be in the 8% increase mark. Photoshop (CS2) simply cannot scale adequately beyond 2 cores, maybe that'll change in Spring 2007. Fingers crossed it does.
Your points about latency and FSB are not separate negatives as you have made them. They are redundant theoretical concerns with implications of unclear practical significance.
I beg to differ. If an app or game is memory intensive, faster memory access does matter. Barefeats (http://barefeats.com/quad09.html) has some benchmarks on dual channel vs quad channel on the Mac Pro. I'd personally like to see that benchmark with an added Conroe system. If dual to quad channel gave 16-25% improvement, imagine what 75% increase in actual bandwidth will do. Besides, I was merely addressing your statements that Woodcrest is faster because of its higher speed FSB and higher memory bus bandwidth.
I am not worried. Everything anyone has come up with on this issue are taken from that same AnandTech article. Until I see more real-world testing, I will not be convinced. Also, I expect that more pro apps such as PS will be able to utilize quad cores in the near future, if they aren't already doing so. Finally, even if Conroe is faster, Woodcrest is fast enough for me ;).
Anandtech, at the moment, is the only place with a quad xeon vs dual xeon benchmark. And yes, dual Woodcrest is fast enough, but is it cost effective compared to a single Woodcrest/Conroe? It seems that for the most part, Mac Pro users are paying for an extra chip but only really utilizing it when running several CPU intensive apps at the same time.
I think you misread that. They were comparing Core 2 Extreme (not Woodcrest) and Conroe to see whether the increased FSB of the former would make much difference.
You're absolutely right about that, its only measuring the improvement over increased FSB. If you take into account FB-DIMM's appalling efficiency, there should be no increase at all (if not decrease) for memory intensive apps.
One question I'd like to put out there, if Apple has had a quad core mac shipping for the past 8 months, why would it wait til intel quads to optimize the code for FCP? Surely they must have known for some time before that that they would release a quad core G5 so either optimizing FCP for quads is a real bastard or they've been sitting on it for no reason.
Yes under some specific results the quad was a bit faster than the dual. Though with the combo of Rosetta+Photoshop its unclear what is causing the difference. However, if you compare the vast majority of the benchmarks, there's negligible difference.
Concerning Photoshop specifically, as can be experienced on a quad G5, the performance increase is 15-20%. A future jump to 8-core would theoretically be in the 8% increase mark. Photoshop (CS2) simply cannot scale adequately beyond 2 cores, maybe that'll change in Spring 2007. Fingers crossed it does.
Your points about latency and FSB are not separate negatives as you have made them. They are redundant theoretical concerns with implications of unclear practical significance.
I beg to differ. If an app or game is memory intensive, faster memory access does matter. Barefeats (http://barefeats.com/quad09.html) has some benchmarks on dual channel vs quad channel on the Mac Pro. I'd personally like to see that benchmark with an added Conroe system. If dual to quad channel gave 16-25% improvement, imagine what 75% increase in actual bandwidth will do. Besides, I was merely addressing your statements that Woodcrest is faster because of its higher speed FSB and higher memory bus bandwidth.
I am not worried. Everything anyone has come up with on this issue are taken from that same AnandTech article. Until I see more real-world testing, I will not be convinced. Also, I expect that more pro apps such as PS will be able to utilize quad cores in the near future, if they aren't already doing so. Finally, even if Conroe is faster, Woodcrest is fast enough for me ;).
Anandtech, at the moment, is the only place with a quad xeon vs dual xeon benchmark. And yes, dual Woodcrest is fast enough, but is it cost effective compared to a single Woodcrest/Conroe? It seems that for the most part, Mac Pro users are paying for an extra chip but only really utilizing it when running several CPU intensive apps at the same time.
I think you misread that. They were comparing Core 2 Extreme (not Woodcrest) and Conroe to see whether the increased FSB of the former would make much difference.
You're absolutely right about that, its only measuring the improvement over increased FSB. If you take into account FB-DIMM's appalling efficiency, there should be no increase at all (if not decrease) for memory intensive apps.
One question I'd like to put out there, if Apple has had a quad core mac shipping for the past 8 months, why would it wait til intel quads to optimize the code for FCP? Surely they must have known for some time before that that they would release a quad core G5 so either optimizing FCP for quads is a real bastard or they've been sitting on it for no reason.
supmango
Mar 22, 12:56 PM
I might have to get my hands on one of these. Hopefully the store demos will work. I love my new iPad, so it will be a hard sell for me.
dgree03
Apr 6, 03:58 PM
1. Have you seen how those apps "scale" on XOOM? That doesn't make them optimized for tablets, just fit more screen space and even that doesn't work that well.
2. Bull.
YOU apparently havent seen how apps scale first hand. Like i said ill take that over x1, x2 ANY day.
Scale?? Access to each other??
I'm beginning to wonder if you have ever used EITHER iOS or Android.
HAHA, Yes I own a XOOM and a Ipad 2(previously Ipad 1).
YOU apparently havent used either at any length.
My point still stands, I can use less apps to accomplish the same goals on a XOOM than i can on a Ipad.
If you have any other first hand usage that proves me wrong.. go for it.
2. Bull.
YOU apparently havent seen how apps scale first hand. Like i said ill take that over x1, x2 ANY day.
Scale?? Access to each other??
I'm beginning to wonder if you have ever used EITHER iOS or Android.
HAHA, Yes I own a XOOM and a Ipad 2(previously Ipad 1).
YOU apparently havent used either at any length.
My point still stands, I can use less apps to accomplish the same goals on a XOOM than i can on a Ipad.
If you have any other first hand usage that proves me wrong.. go for it.
cgc
Jul 15, 05:24 PM
...Putting the PSU at the top, oh dang the computer will tip over with 1 inch of less travel...
...Really people most of the agurments people are using against putting the PSU at the top are stupid and weak at best...
...It WILL NOT make the computer top heavy. The base on computer is wide enough to keep it stable any how...
I was not arguing for or against PSUs at top or bottom, I was simply trying to throw one simple point out: that a 300W PSU which weighs between 2 and 4 lbs would bring the top weight up slightly. I'm not saying it will make Macs tip. I'm sure Apple has considered distributing the weight to ensure their towers are stable, especially since they have one of the largest towers on the market in the G5.
BTW, no need to be so sarcastic and have such a bad attitude.
...Really people most of the agurments people are using against putting the PSU at the top are stupid and weak at best...
...It WILL NOT make the computer top heavy. The base on computer is wide enough to keep it stable any how...
I was not arguing for or against PSUs at top or bottom, I was simply trying to throw one simple point out: that a 300W PSU which weighs between 2 and 4 lbs would bring the top weight up slightly. I'm not saying it will make Macs tip. I'm sure Apple has considered distributing the weight to ensure their towers are stable, especially since they have one of the largest towers on the market in the G5.
BTW, no need to be so sarcastic and have such a bad attitude.
Multimedia
Jul 27, 11:26 PM
if merom produces less heat.. i would think that apple will quickly update both MB and MBP so it won't be releasing anymore problematic notebooksYes your logic is impecible. But Apple does not act on logic. They are in it for the money. :D
dethmaShine
Mar 26, 09:12 AM
I use my computer as a "real computer" and I like virtually every change I've seen. I wish people wouldn't generalize so broadly and presume that because certain additions aren't something that they use that it has nothing to do with "real work."
Celebrity hairstyle trends:
Fun Facts about Jessica Biel
haircuts 2011, hairstyles
rdowns
Mar 24, 01:07 PM
Oh. So when a person criticizes Obama for keeping us in Afghanistan, Iraq, and/or Libya, just level an accusation of racism.
Got it.
That's not what I said at all but feel free to parse things as you see fit.
Got it.
That's not what I said at all but feel free to parse things as you see fit.
nikhsub1
Apr 7, 10:20 PM
Wow. I bought mine at Best Buy on opening day and they sold out of them. Why in anybody's right mind would best buy not sell what they have?
Obviously you know little about retail and accounting.
Obviously you know little about retail and accounting.
yg17
Apr 27, 12:28 PM
Even though there's still about 11.5 hours left in the day in my timezone, leaving plenty of time for the right wingers to unload their batshite, I am awarding the Most Racist Statement of the Day Award to Orly Taitz.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/orly_taitz_obamas_long-form_birth_certificate_should_say_negro_not_african.php?ref=fpb
But she still has her suspicions. Specifically, Taitz thinks that the birth certificate should peg Obama's race as "Negro" and not "African."
319a5 jessica biel hairstyle
Jessica Biel Beautiful Medium
jessica biel 2011 academy
Jessica Biel Hairstyles
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/orly_taitz_obamas_long-form_birth_certificate_should_say_negro_not_african.php?ref=fpb
But she still has her suspicions. Specifically, Taitz thinks that the birth certificate should peg Obama's race as "Negro" and not "African."
Mr-Stabby
Mar 26, 10:08 PM
Speaking of the server part, a lot of people have mentioned SMB. On a related note, i noticed in some of the screenshots i've seen that in 'Server Admin' AFP has disappeared as a service too. Does anybody know if the AFP Server still exists in Lion? There is a File Sharing option in the new server manager, but as far as i can see (i haven't got a copy, just seen pics) it's a bit lacking in features.
entatlrg
Apr 6, 12:09 PM
For most people the ipad is more useful than the air anyway imo. Yes i owned an air, the ipad 1, and now the ipad 2 and the air was just a watered down macbook pro more than the ipad is a scaled up ipod touch
I completely disagree with that statement.
Don't make that remark in the MacBook Air forum unless you enjoy a good debate :D
I completely disagree with that statement.
Don't make that remark in the MacBook Air forum unless you enjoy a good debate :D
TallGuy1970
Mar 31, 04:20 PM
Maybe, just maybe, Steve jobs knows a bit about computing. You may not like his business model, but the man isn't stupid.
SevenInchScrew
Dec 9, 12:36 PM
Even though I sometimes get bored of your constant dissing of GT5, those are my thoughts as well.
I know it probably seems, at times, like I'm just mindlessly bashing the game, but I'm not. That isn't how I intend to come across. I'm a LOOOONG time GT fan who is just really frustrated with how the whole saga of this game has played out. Too long in the making and still releasing with flaws, half-assed features, and needing patches is not what I've come to expect from PD.
My only hope is, now that they've got this out the door, they will start major work on GT6 and get things cleaned up and to customers in a couple years, not half a decade. Like I said, the core of a great game is in there, somewhere. They just need to trim off a lot of the fat, and make GT6 that great game we expected.
I know it probably seems, at times, like I'm just mindlessly bashing the game, but I'm not. That isn't how I intend to come across. I'm a LOOOONG time GT fan who is just really frustrated with how the whole saga of this game has played out. Too long in the making and still releasing with flaws, half-assed features, and needing patches is not what I've come to expect from PD.
My only hope is, now that they've got this out the door, they will start major work on GT6 and get things cleaned up and to customers in a couple years, not half a decade. Like I said, the core of a great game is in there, somewhere. They just need to trim off a lot of the fat, and make GT6 that great game we expected.
Prom1
Aug 6, 03:28 AM
My Predictions:
Mac Pro:
-Fastest pro Mac ever shipped
-Hard drives, BTO 750gb, perpendicular recording
-New displays with HDMI, iSight & IR, even brighter
-Wireless-WiMax or 802.11n-whatever's ready first, otherwise BT 2.0+EDR, AE
-Multiple graphics card in a SLI/Crossfire like mode for extremely powerful graphics and stereo 3D, Quadro FX5500 and maybe also first Mac to be supported by the new Quadro Plex. 256MB std, 512MB BTO
-HD Audio
Isight on displays built-in but I only want that with higher resolution with Auto Focus ability.
> New displays with a thinner bezel around the LCD; higher contrast ratio 1200:1 minimum; denser pixel count, DLP technology with LEDs or with Zenon technology for the DLP; but more richer BLACK!
> BTO Bluetooth 2.0+EDR has been on the PowerBooks for at least 2 generations & on the MB+MBP!
> WiMax although sweet its long away; HUGE battery gobbler. 2 years minimum.
> I'd love for the MacBookPRO lineup to be more PRO with DUAL HDD configuration but without creating more heat.
> THe MBP should be equal in computing & graphical performance as the cheapest MacPro!
Mac Pro:
-Fastest pro Mac ever shipped
-Hard drives, BTO 750gb, perpendicular recording
-New displays with HDMI, iSight & IR, even brighter
-Wireless-WiMax or 802.11n-whatever's ready first, otherwise BT 2.0+EDR, AE
-Multiple graphics card in a SLI/Crossfire like mode for extremely powerful graphics and stereo 3D, Quadro FX5500 and maybe also first Mac to be supported by the new Quadro Plex. 256MB std, 512MB BTO
-HD Audio
Isight on displays built-in but I only want that with higher resolution with Auto Focus ability.
> New displays with a thinner bezel around the LCD; higher contrast ratio 1200:1 minimum; denser pixel count, DLP technology with LEDs or with Zenon technology for the DLP; but more richer BLACK!
> BTO Bluetooth 2.0+EDR has been on the PowerBooks for at least 2 generations & on the MB+MBP!
> WiMax although sweet its long away; HUGE battery gobbler. 2 years minimum.
> I'd love for the MacBookPRO lineup to be more PRO with DUAL HDD configuration but without creating more heat.
> THe MBP should be equal in computing & graphical performance as the cheapest MacPro!
NoSmokingBandit
Dec 3, 02:56 PM
I'm think i'm a 15 A-spec, and i just started B-spec to save up money for the Ferrari and Lambo races in the Pro series. I've only done a few spec events, but i've got all gold in B and A licenses as well as 9/10 gold (one silver) in I-C license.
I find the license tests to be more fun now that they arent mandatory. They seem easier too. In GT4 it was work just to pass some of them, but in GT5 i find that i always get silver or bronze on my first attempt. Gold is a bit of work sometimes though.
I find the license tests to be more fun now that they arent mandatory. They seem easier too. In GT4 it was work just to pass some of them, but in GT5 i find that i always get silver or bronze on my first attempt. Gold is a bit of work sometimes though.
BlondeBuddhist
Jun 10, 06:09 PM
Gazelle (http://www.gazelle.com/) buys old iPhones too. :)
gomakeitreal
Aug 5, 04:11 PM
I can't wait for Monday. I'll be working that day, so I am going to try to watch the keynote before reading any updates. I even have the Quicktime Events page bookmarked. :D I figured I would be more surprised by taking this route.
This is the first WWDC I'm really looking forward to, mainly because of what we're going to see... Leopard in action! :D
Edit: Peace, that's not entirely true. None of us know whether Apple will release Cinema Displays with iSights built-in. I'd say it is unlikely, but you never know until it actually happens.
what is the link for the QT page? :p
This is the first WWDC I'm really looking forward to, mainly because of what we're going to see... Leopard in action! :D
Edit: Peace, that's not entirely true. None of us know whether Apple will release Cinema Displays with iSights built-in. I'd say it is unlikely, but you never know until it actually happens.
what is the link for the QT page? :p
krcbkidz
Mar 22, 05:10 PM
The difference is Samsung outsources it's OS development, it's developer community management, it's app ecosystem.
Cost competitive doesn't experience competitive.
I think for 'spec' people (hard core coders, corp types that need to control configuration), Samsung (and more importantly, when HP gets in the game HP), will compete there.... HOWEVER, this is a consumer run market, and much like a Sony WalkMan back in the day, or RollerBlades([tm]... the rest were 'inline skates'), Apple is 'defining' the market... and the rest are just knockoffs.
And unlike the old BMW pricing explanation(excuse) for Macs (equal specs and quality... from Apple HP and Dell are about the same in price) Apple is pushing iPad's experience at the BMW levels, but at Honda prices.
And RIM and samsung are pushing mid 80's GM quality against a 2012 BMW at honda prices, when the market will probably demand Kia prices for the 'experience'
Likes this :-)
Cost competitive doesn't experience competitive.
I think for 'spec' people (hard core coders, corp types that need to control configuration), Samsung (and more importantly, when HP gets in the game HP), will compete there.... HOWEVER, this is a consumer run market, and much like a Sony WalkMan back in the day, or RollerBlades([tm]... the rest were 'inline skates'), Apple is 'defining' the market... and the rest are just knockoffs.
And unlike the old BMW pricing explanation(excuse) for Macs (equal specs and quality... from Apple HP and Dell are about the same in price) Apple is pushing iPad's experience at the BMW levels, but at Honda prices.
And RIM and samsung are pushing mid 80's GM quality against a 2012 BMW at honda prices, when the market will probably demand Kia prices for the 'experience'
Likes this :-)